From: "Stouten, Pieter [R&D/0467]" PHARMACIA COM> Date: 12 dec 2002 Subject: Re: Elo ratings and grades Hello Shogi fans, On Wed 11 Dec 2002 23:04 +0100, Eric Cheymol wrote: > As the European Rating Officer from 1994 to 2000, I applied > some clear rules. Apart from the written rules, there was an > essential non written rule. This rule said that as an > organization recognized by the NSR, FESA accepts all NSR > decisions, whatever they are. This rule has never been > contested. > Let's contrast this statement with Eric's follow-up statements. On Thu 12 Dec 2002 01:22 +0100, Eric Cheymol FREE FR> wrote: > As far as I remember, Alse Olufsen got this shodan > diploma at the first ISF. As I wrote in my previous mail: > """The idea of the NSR was to show each step a player reached > (final, semi final and so on).""" The idea was not to award > grades, as Onogi san confirmed to me. All players ending the > tournament in the 8th final got a shodan diploma as soon as > the NSR previously didn't award them a higher diploma. A > player ending in the 4th final got a nidan diploma [...] > What is said here is that NSR gives players dan-diplomas, but that even NSR does not recognize this as awarding a grade. I am not sure NSR agrees with that notion. Anyway, if FESA accepts all NSR decisions and players show an official NSR dan diploma then what choice does FESA have than to accept that diploma? Second, the situation with the ISF is exactly the same. At the end of the event, the winner would get a 5-dan diploma irrespective of his "true" performance or strength or the strength of his opponents. If all players had succumbed to a mysterious virus and Giuseppe Baggio (4 kyu) had won the ISF, he would also have gotten a 5-dan grade. Note that I was one of the people defending Gert's right to carry his 5-dan title. All I am trying to do here is to point out the inconsistencies in Eric's reasoning, so as to establish that properly addressing the issue of NSR grades for people that already have established Elo-based grades is not as simple as it may seem. > > Also, there is the case of Richard Bjerke. [...] Richard > > ended second in his league, but since number 1 had already > > participated, that number 1 was not eligible. Therefore, > > Richard qualified and got a 4-dan grade. In our system at > > the time he was 1-kyu; now he may be 1-dan. [...] > > You are talking about an internet tournament !! This > tournament was not recognized by any association as a > rated tournament. Internet tournaments are not ratable > by FESA/USSF, and results in internet tournament can > not be considered at all, even if you manage to beat a > pro in an even game! > This again is inconsistent with the premise that "FESA accepts all NSR decisions, whatever they are." NSR decided to give Richard a 4-dan diploma, so FESA should have had no choice but to accept this. That the grade would never have been awarded within the FESA/USSF system is not relevant. What Eric, in fact, has done is to decide for himself when to accept NSR decisions and when not. Since this was part of an unwritten rule, it was hard to know about it, let alone contest it. I think the current discussion is good as it makes people aware of the issue and it shows that it may not be a simple matter to resolve. As Larry recently said: "There are many issues to sort out here." > The 2002 ISF has been recognized as a rated tournament > by the FESA/USSF itself !!! This only thing should > imply that promotions should be recognized as well. > The event *could be* rated because it met the FESA/USSF criteria for a ratable event. The event *was* rated because a substantial number of players on the Pan-Atlantic list participated. That is completely unrelated to the grade NSR decided to award the winner. Example: last weekend's GP tournament in Milano was rated. If the organizer (me) had decided to do something silly and award the winner a 4-dan grade for winning the tournament, that grade would not have been recognized by FESA, but the games would still be rated. Ciao, Pieter