From: Eric Cheymol FREE FR> Date: 12 dec 2002 Subject: Re: Elo ratings and grades Hi Pieter, Le mercredi, 11 déc 2002, à 23:36 Europe/Paris, Pieter Stouten a écrit : > On 2002/12/11 at 23:04 +0100, Eric Cheymol wrote: > >> As the European Rating Officer from 1994 to 2000, I applied some >> clear rules. Apart from the written rules, there was an essential >> non written rule. This rule said that as an organization >> recognized by the NSR, FESA accepts all NSR decisions, whatever >> they are. This rule has never been contested. >> > Interesting. I seem to remember Asle Olufsen received a shodan grade > from NSR a few years ago and you decided not to accept his grade. > Eric, please correct me if my memory is faulty. Interesting case indeed ! As far as I remember, Alse Olufsen got this shodan diploma at the first ISF. As I wrote in my previous mail : """The idea of the NSR was to show each step a player reached (final, semi final and so on).""" The idea was not to award grades, as Onogi san confirmed to me. All players ending the tournament in the 8th final got a shodan diploma as soon as the NSR previously didn't award them a higher diploma. A player ending in the 4th final got a nidan diploma (as soon as the NSR previously didn't award them a higher diploma again) and so on. This is the reason why a sandan player ending in the 8th final could get a shodan diploma ! So this was not a promotion at all for anybody, neither a depromotion for others. This case is not a good example. > Also, there is the case of Richard Bjerke. If memory serves me, the > story is the following (Richard, please correct me if I got the > details wrong): Richard was supposed to participate in the ama Ryu O > (or ISF, I forgot) qualifyer in New York, which was cancelled after > 9/11. This tournament was replaced by an internet tournament with far > fewer representatives than originally foreseen. Richard ended second > in his league, but since number 1 had already participated, that > number 1 was not eligible. Therefore, Richard qualified and got a > 4-dan grade. In our system at the time he was 1-kyu; now he may be > 1-dan. What would you do in this case? You are talking about an internet tournament !! This tournament was not recognized by any association as a rated tournament. Internet tournaments are not ratable by FESA/USSF, and results in internet tournament can not be considered at all, even if you manage to beat a pro in an even game ! Pieter, in my previous mail, I am talking about a BIG tournament. Both 1999 and 2002 ISF has been organized with a higher standard than ama ryu-o or the ama meijin tournaments !! You can not compare them with an internet qualification tournament at all ! For both ISFs, each country could decide which qualification method it can use. Even choosing a player without any qualification tournament is enough ! The 2002 ISF has been recognized as a rated tournament by the FESA/USSF itself !!! This only thing should imply that promotions should be recognized as well. I enclose a paragraph from my previous mail again """I agree that sometimes, a promotion, awarded by NSR for service to shogi or even by a pro visiting a country, is questionable. And in that case, the rating comitee can choose keeping the current grade. But in the ISF case, the grade was awarded in a tournament, a important tournament.""" The grades we are discussiing about is for players ending in the FIRST 2 places ! Not somewhere at the end of the table tournament. >> Then for the 2002 ISF, we see that the winner gets the 5 Dan grade! >> And FESA/USSF says: "thanks, but we will use our own rules !!". >> > Making a point by twisting somebody's words is not very helpful for > an open discussion. I indicated that FESA has not yet taken a stance, > which is a far cry from not accepting NSR grades. Pieter, as the FESA pages are often read, many readers has been waiting for FESA/USSF decision about this. In fact, I didn't think a decision was needed. And the tournament ended almost 2 months ago ! This should be enough to give some information to the readers. As many shogi-l mails were congratulating Gert's promotion, it was difficult to understand why this promotion was not indicated on the FESA pages. I don't remember having read a mail saying "Gert, your performance is good but perhaps not good enough for a 5 Dan promotion". I only remember about "Congratulations, Gert, you deserve the 5 Dan grade" ! > My personal view is > that we should accept NSR grades unless a player prefers to retain > his Elo-based grade. Good point, giving the choice to the player is a fair possibility. But why waiting 2 months to make a decision for this ? With recent Gert's mails, and with his new grade written next to his name, his opinion on this subject is easy to guess. I don't see haw FESA/USSF can be credible to the NSR if it doesn't accept NSR's promotions for the first places of a main amateur tournament organized in Japan. Again, this discussion could be kept private, but your answer to Bill Gaudry in a previous mail opened the subject. Ratings and grades are a never ending story !! Cheers, Eric