From: "Stouten, Pieter [R&D/0467]" PHARMACIA COM> Date: 11 dec 2002 Subject: Re: Elo ratings and grades Hello Shogi fans, --- bogin YAHOO CO JP> wrote: > Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. Almost > all of my questions have been answered but I'm still > confused about why Mr. Schnider hasn't been awarded his > 5dan rank. If the Japanese Shogi Renmei felt strongly > enough to award him the 5dan rank based on his excellent > result at the recent Shogi Forum than wouldn't that be > justification enough for FESA to recognize that rank as > well? I mean you can't get any better proof than having > the JSR award such a rank, can you? > FESA/USSF have the responsibility and authority to rate and grade their own players. NSR wants it that way and has only asked us to request their approval when 5- and 6-dan promotions are concerned (see , item 12). As I indicated before, FESA has no policy or rules about grades that are awarded by NSR that are inconsistent with FESA grades, but I expect FESA to formulate a position shortly. I personally have no problem with accepting NSR grades as long as they are based on actual games and tournament results, even if they would not have been awarded within our Elo system. However, there are cases of players that felt uncomfortable with a grade awarded by NSR when they themselves did not feel they performed at that level. In a previous SHOGI-L message Larry Kaufman indicated he felt that way and I think Richard Bjerke is in a similar position. > And, if FESA recognizes the ranks of Japanese players > awarded by the JSR then why shouldn't it also recognize > Mr. Schnider's rank as well since it was awarded by the > JSR. > Let me elaborate on the explanation in my previous mail: FESA accepts any grades (i.e., also from clubs in or outside Japan) without judgement. However, FESA only does that when it has no other information to base a player's grade on. As soon as information from rated games becomes available, FESA does not need to base grades on anything but ratings anymore. Since grades are titles that, once awarded, cannot be retracted, players on the Pan-Atlantic Elo ratings list retain any grade they had prior to entering the Elo list. > Also, with respect to Mr. Kolomiyets, I can perhaps > understand your eplaination as it pertains to Japanese > players but Mr. Jiming has only played 6 games opposed > to Mr. Kolomiyets 10 and is only rated 3 points higher. > And yet, he is listed at 3dan instead of 2dan. > I assume Tao Jiming received his grade from his association or club, so even though he might not have obtained his grade within our system, we can only accept his grade. > Of course, you can base ratings > on the subjective assessments of other players > I assume you mean grades, not ratings. Indeed, one can base grades on subjective assessments, but FESA/USSF have decided not to do that (see rating.intro, item 7). > but in Mr. Kolomiyets case it's not just anyone who made > such claims. He actually beat Mr. Schnider in their > individual game and only lost to Mr. Kaufman and Mr. > Mirnik. I would think that they would be pretty good > judges of true shogi strength. > We have the Elo rating system to exactly do that: we use the results of players and the ratings of their opponents, treat them in a statistically sound fashion and produce ratings. Artem Kolomiyets has a rating (2118) a little above Gert's and Boris'. I assume that you find that reasonable. If so, the only issue remaining is that Artem is not 3-dan. I explained in my previous mail that once he has played 18 games, he will be promoted, provided that his rating remains above 2080. Perhaps you find our promotion rules too severe, but it should be kept in mind that since players cannot be demoted (i.e., get a lower grade than they have), we must err a little on the conservative side, especially where the higher dan grades are concerned. All the best, Pieter