From: Fabien Osmont SYSTOR COM> Date: 11 dec 2002 Subject: Re: Tournament Performance Rating-based pairing According to my very small experience in tournament management, I would say a such system was not really good for a so small tournament. At Colmar, we also have allways 6 rounds and we had already till 17 players. I have actually noticed that using Mac Mahon in a such configuration is not so good because, if you avoid big rating differences on the first round, it has a clear consequence during the last or the 2 last rounds. I mean : a low rated player is quite sure to meet a quite high rated player for the last or even the 2 last rounds. With swiss system, high rated player doesn't "lose" time by winning easily the first round BUT, afterwards, they are quite sure to play normal games till the end and it's also the same for the low rated players. With Mac Mahon, doing the contrary has (perhaps) no consequence for high rated players but it has one for low rated players. With humility, I'd like to take my example during this tournament : I've played y last game against Hans who is clearly far better than me. In a swiss system, I should have to play against Asle or Martin I think. And perhaps, if I was lucky and by considering the other round results, I would win... That's why we have choosen to NOT use Mac Mahon since a few years at Colmar. And I think this TPR system would generate the same kind of problem. Mac Mahon is great for big tournament like European championship. I think TPR would be great too for such tournaments but for tournaments with less than 20 players, I think Swiis is probably better. I know I'm not a FESA arbiter and that I have actually a quite small experience in managing tournament. I just wanted to also "give my 5 cents" about this quite important subject. I want also to precise that Eddy and I don't want to criticise the Milan tournament which was for us a good exeprience. My goal here was just to give my opinion about TPR / Mac MAhon / Swiss system. That's all. Cheers Fabien http://asa.free.fr Asle Olufsen IFI UIO NO> To: SHOGI-L TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL Sent by: The Shogi cc: Discussion List Subject: Re: Tournament Performance Rating-based pairing TECHUNIX TECHN ION.AC.IL> 11.12.0102 15:24 Please respond to The Shogi Discussion List > The definition of TPR is indeed that simple. Building a pairing program > around it that also leads to meaningful results is a different story. A TPR > tournament is actually a refined version of a McMahon tournament, but rather > than starting out with a crude measure of strength (zero or more McMahon > points), one starts with one fictitious game against oneself. The result of that dummy game is a draw. > This is how > everybody's starting Elo rating is set. And the reason for using it is the same as in a MacMahon namely to avoid bad pairing, that is pairing players with a large difference in strength. But the MacMahon points is a big advantage to the high rated players. The dummy draw is an advanteage at the start of the tournament but are lessend with each round. And as soon as two players meet any difference because of their start rating is completely nullified because the low rated players now plays a higher rated opponent which gives more points than it gives the high rated player who have to play a lower rated player (with the same outcome). If two players played a draw (if that was allowed) in the first round then they would get excactely the same performance points no matter what their starting rating was, since they both have a draw against their own rating and one against the other rating. > Asle's program > leads to meaningful results, but for example handling of byes and of players > with unknown or unreliable ratings needs some finetuning. Absolutely. And for players who dont play all rounds. Oluf