From: Jonathan Tisdall <jtisdall <at> C2I <dot> NET>
Date: 16 mar 2001
Subject: Re: About the name of the pieces

Interesting discussion this, as always, and especially when someone of Martin
Danerud's organizing ability goes on at such length.

I tend to agree with his letter on almost every point, though not to the degree
that it is the only way, though it is almost certainly the most promising way,
as it has been for chess. But I think there is one other big "market", and that
is existing chessplayers.

I know that this is often a dead end as they are too caught up with chess, but
I think there are several ways that this can and will change;

First, and most importantly they need some material in a language they can
read.

Second, they need to be able to join some sort of club or group, so stealing
chessplayers en masse will probably be a later stage of popularizing the game,
though I think you will always be able to steal some, as we have seen in
Scandinavia.

Third, they need to lose some interest in chess - I think this is inevitable to
some degree now, and will accelerate as computers become more of a dominant
presence, the world title is a mess, FIDE ruins tournament chess, etc.

Finally, I think it takes very little exposure in connection to #3 for the huge
advantages shogi has over chess to allow them to be won over, at least to play
both.

My limited experience with trying to convert people is that the pieces are a
limited obstacle to chessplayers, but almost anything additional (conflicting
notations, piece names, etc.) quickly raises the noise level to the point that
they find it annoying. I don't see why one has to worry what people call the
pieces, as long as they know what they are called when they need to - I am far
too gone to stop thinking in terms a rook or a bishop when these pieces are
identical, though I have no problem dealing with their proper names in context.

I think the key thing is indeed not "to introduce more thresholds from the
beginning". Once hooked the game itself will do the rest.

And to start a new thread, why doesn't this list, as the clearly most central
shogi organ in the rest of the world, discuss things like opening questions, or
key positions in the latest title games? On the MSO message boards, which are
not as well visited as we would like, I have had requests for such things from
other groups - people who might be primarily players of another game wonder if
there is a place one can ask such shogi questions - and I find it odd that such
discussions don't take place very much even here.

jt



On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:20:33 +0100, DANERUD MARTIN wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>You are raising an interesting question, Ito-san! You are right to some
>extent. We, the western shogi players, can
>"just" use the Japanese names. It will be easier for the rest of OUR lives.
>That is correct. However, the one and
>only question which is important regarding shogi in the west is the
>popularisation of shogi. Who is champion, who is
>a dan player, who has a certain ELO number today, all that will soon be
>forgotten. The only way that our names even
>have a futile chance of being remembered by future shogi players in the west
>is that we succeed to popularize
>shogi. We will need to do that if we want to have any shogi players whatsoever
>in the west in the future.
>We have chosen to use the Japanese characters on the pieces. That is good. But
>characters, rules, and the
>absence of a World shogi organisation and a real World Champion are enough
>obstacles for the popularisation of
>shogi in a dominant chess culture. The beginners will learn the Japanese names
>of the pieces after some time. That
>is no problem. We just do not have to introduce more thresholds from the
>beginning!
>I have a lot of experience of popularising shogi in Sweden. It is possible. We
>need western shogi players who are
>willing to do the job and we need some assistance from Japanese organisations
>with shogi sets etc. The key to the
>west is the schools. Young people are willing to learn new things, start new
>activities, and they are also less blinded
>by prejudices. Young people from the ages seven to twenty should be our main
>target group. I know that it means a
>lot of job. I know that some of you may resign on this task. I know that some
>of you may prepare to make ironic
>remarks about this, since it is such a big task. But I tell you the truth.
>There is no other way. Without popularising
>shogi in the schools, shogi in the west will remain a small sect in the best
>case.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>Dr. Martin Danerud
>