From: "'Ben Bednarz'" <BenFB <at> AOL <dot> COM>
Date: 14 sep 2000
Subject: Re: Computer's rating

I'd say Larry's closer to the mark.  The improvement of chess-playing
programs over the years really has NOT been a matter of software.  While
modern programs might understand positional chess slightly better than
programs of 15 years ago, mainly the computers are just a lot faster now.  In
other words, chess playing programs have improved mainly because computers
are faster.

If shogi is behind chess by 15 years, or even 5 years, a large part of that
is likely due to the greater horse power needed for brute calculations in
shogi.  Now that's a technical issue, but I also think there's a business
issue: researchers and big corporations pursued development of chess programs
more ardently than shogi programs.  Yes, I am aware that a lot of work has
been done in Japan on shogi programs, but chess was very much an
international effort.  I've got old books on chess programing in boxes
somewhere in my attic that are translations from Russian and German, in
addition to those written in English.  Chess programming goes clear back to
the 60s.  In all, I'd say that more people and more money was spent over a
longer time on chess than on shogi.

Ben

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In a message dated 9/14/00 8:34:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lkaufman <at> WIZARD <dot> NET writes:

> Subj:       Re: Computer's rating
>  Date:    9/14/00 8:34:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>  From:    lkaufman <at> WIZARD <dot> NET (Larry Kaufman)
>  Sender:  SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL (The Shogi Discussion List)
>  Reply-to:    SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL (The Shogi Discussion List)
>  To:  SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL
>
>  At 04:08 PM 9/14/00 +0100, you wrote:
>
>  >> So the question is: if one of today's best shogi programs were
>  >> modified as necessary to run on an old IBM xt machine, how
>  >> well would it play?  My own guess would be 10 kyu or even worse, but
I've
>  >> only worked on chess software, not shogi software so I'm not fully
>  >qualified to say.
>  >> Shogi programmers reading this, please give us your opinions
>  >> on this question.
>  >
>  >I claim no expertise but this is a hardware question which seems to me to
> be
>  >a concern about speed rather than the 'thought' processes of the program
>  >itself.
>
>       Speed is not the only issue; the limitations of DOS and the size of
>  memory in the pc back then may also be critical factors for shogi, though
>  again only a shogi programmer can tell us.
>
>  >The top Shogi program, if as Larry says suitably modified to work on an
IBM
>  >xt,
>  >need not suffer a diminution of 'skill' - it would just take far, far
> longer
>  >to 'think'
>  >about its moves (unacceptably long, I would have thought).
>  >
>  >This means it could well be a very slow moving 4 dan.
>
>       All ranks (in chess or shogi) assume some reasonable time limit.  In
>  tournaments clocks are used.  In club play without clocks players are still
>  expected to move at roughly a minute per move on average or faster; if a
>  player took much more than this either the director would say something, or
>  else soon no one would agree to play him.  To ignore the time element in
>  giving a ranking is not valid.  If I could take a thousand times as long as
>  an average pro per move (and 1000 is roughly the speed factor we are
>  discussing) I believe I would have fairly equal (or even superior) chances
>  in an (otherwise) even game (I actually once beat a pro in an even game
>  with only a 2-1 time handicap).  If so, can I claim to be a slow moving
>  pro?  I think not.
>
>  >(I dread to think how long an 'IBM xt 4 dan' would take to move... ;-]  )
>  >
>       Well, a thousand minutes is about 17 hours.  But due to tiny memory,
>  even with that much time I suspect it would be far below 4 Dan.
>
>  >Anyway, over to the experts...
>  >
>  >Nick
>  >
>       Larry
>
>
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>  From: Larry Kaufman <lkaufman <at> WIZARD <dot> NET>
>  Subject:      Re: Computer's rating
>  To: SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL
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