From: "Secelle Johannes F.L.A." MINFIN FED BE> Date: 6 sep 2000 Subject: Re: Time limits Hey all, I think we're missing one very important element, one that is very hard to evaluate : the average number of moves in a game of Shogi. The point is that only very few players write down their moves and even when they do, they usually stop writing in byoyomi (even Arend the iceman). I suppose games of 70 moves are pretty common. Larry's formula would bring us to 1800 secs (30 * 60) + (70 * 30) or 130 * 30 = 3900 * 2 players = 7800 seconds i.e. 2 hrs and 10 minutes. This is OK. A nightmare game of 100 moves would bring us to (1800 + 3000) *2 = 9600 seconds or 2h40 which is still reasonable. So, Larry's proposal is worth further investigation. Cheers, Hans Secelle, FESA Chairman. Larry Kaufman wrote: > At 03:51 PM 9/6/00 +0200, DANERUD MARTIN wrote: > > >Your information that "increment time" indeed could be used for rating > games in the USA is very interesting! Is it > >the same in Europe? > > Even in chess in the U.S., there is still discussion going on as to > whether increment (as contrasted to delay) is currently approved for rated > play or whether a separate ruling is needed. So I suppose that for FESA > someone should clarify the point; logically increment should be ratable, > but depending on how your rules are written a legally-minded person might > have an objection. > > What do you think would be a suitable time for shogi games with > approximately the same total > >playing time as for 1 hour + 30 s byo-yomi? > > My proposal would be 15 min + 1 min increment, which would result in > >(15 + 50) x 2 minutes = 130 minutes for a 50 moves (100 "Japanese" moves) > game. In the organiser nightmare > >game with (15 + 80) x 2 minutes = 190 minutes for an 80 moves (160) game, > that would result in just a small > >delay from a three hours per round schedule. > > The same game at 1 hour + 30s would probably last about 140 minutes, > so this is a huge difference. The schedule you use is irrelevant to the > comparison. So I would say your proposal is too slow. > In my opinion the increment does not need to be so much, because some > moves are obvious which allows for more time on the hard moves. So let's > try a 30" increment. If our base time is 30', then after 60 moves each we > have used the same 1 hour as originally stipulated. However the remaining > moves would take a bit more time, because some byoyomi moves are made in > less than the max. time. So 30' + 30" increment would be slightly slower > than 1 hour + 30" byo, but much faster than your proposal. However the > quality of game would be much higher than 1 hour + 30" byo, probably nearly > as high as 1 hour + 1 minute byoyomi. So this is my recommendation for you. > > >Sincerely yours, > > > >Dr. Martin Danerud > > > >President of the Swedish Shogi Federation, Vice President of FESA > > > > > Regards, Larry