From: Astarte <astarte <at> CHELLO <dot> SE>
Date: 4 oct 2000
Subject: Fw: Re: MSO 2000 Shogi Festival

     This is a very interesting discussion.
     How should the ancient game of shogi be integrated into modern western
 society molded in the tournament form? We live in a time characterized by
 speed; and to be able to do things in high speed is also highly regarded in
 many activities. The central question : Is this a factor that deserves
 respect in shogi tournaments? If speed should be given low priority; how
 should it then be integrated in the tournament form? Most of us are
subjects
 of time restrictions.
     After participating in a couple of shogi tournaments in Sweden, I
 reached a couple of personal conclusions about the tournament form 60' +
 30'' byoyomi :
     1) The quality of the games deteriorated continuously when the players
 approached the byoyomi stage. The game is too difficult to be played with
 30'' byoyomi. The quality of the endgame in such conditions is a joke. I
 don't think it is possible to develop your abilities in this beautiful part
 of the game (the endgame) during these conditions. A horrible situation
 occurs : the philosophy of the game demands a crucial factor, time. That
 precious resource is sacrificed on the altar of profanity. Not in one
 singular game, but in many. The incremental form is more just, and gives
 power of disposition to the player. I would advocate 60' +120'' increment;
 in order to give time for the recording of moves. If you cannot study the
 games afterwards; why should you play tournaments in the first place?
     2) The tournaments are squeezed in, with a very tight schedule. At
least
 a week should be allocated for a serious shogi tournament. Players will
then
 be able to analyze their games during the evenings. Personal shogi
 development after a hard game and during analysis! Not more than one
 tournament game per diem would be my motto! I think that this is more in
the
 nature of the game, and much more satisfactory for the individual.
     My personal opinion is analogous to Mr. Kaufman's :  The byoyomi stage
 of the game is very unsatisfactory in the form used in MSO. Byoyomi should
 be replaced by increment in future tournaments.

 Regards
Christer Hartman

PS. I am aware of the fact that the thoughts above are a bit out of order,
philosophically. Few players can live a life "as a man of leisure", which I
think would be beneficial for shogi in general and tournament shogi in
particular.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Kaufman" <lkaufman <at> WIZARD <dot> NET>
> To: <SHOGI-L <at> TECHUNIX <dot> TECHNION <dot> AC <dot> IL>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 5:02 AM
> Subject: Re: MSO 2000 Shogi Festival
>
>
> > At 12:46 PM 9/4/00 +0200, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Of course it is foolish to enter byoyomi. I think of the byoyomi as
sort
> > >of
> > >a punishment for thinking to slow. But it enables the player to play on
> > >and not
> > >loose by time (as in chess).
> > >
> > >Rikard Nordgren
> > >
> > >
> >      When the byoyomi (in seconds) exceeds the main time (in minutes),
as
> > is the case in most U.S. tournaments as well as all "ShogiDojo" games,
it
> > is not at all foolish to enter byoyomi.  To avoid byoyomi you would need
> to
> > play at an average pace much faster than the byoyomi itself, without
much
> > benefit.  So we in the U.S. and those who play on ShogiDojo have got
used
> > to the idea of byoyomi being a normal part of the game, not a punishment
> > for slow play.  However the time limit of 1 hour + 30" is only justified
> by
> > thinking of byoyomi as a punishment for slow play, as you say.  I think
it
> > leads to much lower quality of play than say 40' + 1' byoyomi, which
would
> > probably take about the same amount of time.
> >      The increment system (also called "Fischer", though it was invented
> by
> > me for use in shogi with the "Micromate" clock around 1980, long before
> > Fischer mentioned it), in which the player must average a fixed amount
of
> > time per move, leads to much better shogi in the same amount of time
than
> > byoyomi.  Basically, byoyomi is a holdover from the days when better
> > methods were not available.
> >
> >      Larry Kaufman
> >
> >
>