From: Jonathan Tisdall C2I NET> Date: 5 feb 2000 Subject: Re: to play shogi on the net This was not a discussion about the MSO, it was more one about to what lengths one might go to teach people, or get a wider range of people interested in teaching. For the MSO website, it is possible to allow people to play through games, and perhaps eventually have an option on the playing software, to choose an "interface" (piece set) that they find simpler, since in virtual space what they prefer has no impact on anyone else. The beauty about virtual space is that one's opponent can play chess with a Gothic Disney set on day-glo colored squares without anyone being offended. As I said, I have never understood the point that putting an extra step in the way of learning to play with the real pieces, but a lot of people prefer several smaller steps. This is a survey, the MSO will not have any unorthodoxy, except perhaps in the beginner's event. jt At 07:55 5.2.00 +0000, you wrote: >On 01-Feb-00 15:39:18, Jonathan Tisdall said: > >>For example, there are discussions at the MSO about trying shogi viewers >>with black and white pieces, boards with alternating color squares, >>different piece symbols, etc. > >I really _can't_ see the issue with black and white squares or >different coloured pieces. The way the game works should make it >obvious to anyone why the pieces have to be the same colour but point >in different directions. And I can't see that black and white squares >would really make any difference: after all, there are various other >games at the MSO which don't have black and white squares. > >I consider equally silly the suggestion (which I have heard) that >westerners would find Chinese Chess more accessible if the pieces >were in squares rather than on points. > >>I have always thought a little pain at the beginning (just use the real >>equipment) > >Indeed. The only issue that isn't entirely silly is the kanji one. >Even there, I only regard is as a problem for random passers-by: >anyone with any intention of learning to play the game can learn to >distinguish the pieces within a game or two. (This is probably less >true with the larger shogi variants, but those aren't MSO events.) > >The human-vs-computer display board is an example of a case where >there could be a reasonably large audience of non-players. Perhaps a dual >display? I find the "letter" mode of Shogi Master (for example) harder >to use than the kanji mode. Perhaps a dual display would be possible? > >>and then you are up to speed, but i find more and more that >>people feel that visual "training wheels" could be a big help in getting >>people to make the biggest, first step of learning the game. > >As George Hodges' animal set shows, there are Japanese pieces with >arrows round the outside. I would regard pieces with "hints" like this >as "acceptable" for use when teaching the rules. But in actual tournament >play between humans in the MSO, _surely_ there's no alternative to using >"proper" pieces? You wouldn't let someone play in the chess tournament >with Mickey Mouse or Star Trek pieces, or indeed anything >non-Staunton, surely? Unless there's a beginners-only event after the >"learn and play new games" day, in which case the beginners might be >allowed to negotiate the pieces to use in each round, or something. >Anyone planning to play the game for any length of time will have to >learn to recognise the Japanese pieces eventually. And whatever >hand-wringing "anti-elitists" might say, it's not that hard to do. > >-- >Adam Atkinson (ghira mistral co uk) >You got a light, mac? >No, but I've got a dark brown overcoat. > >