From: Larry Kaufman WIZARD NET> Date: 16 apr 2000 Subject: Re: Shogi Rules (Re: 2 funny things happened) At 11:46 AM 4/16/00 -0400, you wrote: >At 01:17 AM 4/12/00 -0400, Sam wrote: >>I also believe that Ray's opponent knew all along that the position was >>nifu. Out of Japanese politeness, he did not point out that Larry's son had >>forfeited the game. Instead he waited for Ray to realize it himself. >> >>It is almost inconceivable that a four-dan player would let the game go on >>for several moves and not realize that the position was nifu. >> >>Larry does not say whether the 4-dan players involved were American or >>Japanese, but since Larry himself is almost the only American 4-dan player, >>it is reasonably likely that both the spectator and Ray's opponent were >>Japanese and knew the etiquette of shogi better than Larry does. >> >>Sam Sloan >> > >Although Sam does raise an interesting possibility, it is sad that the >purpose of the note seems only to attack Larry personally. I didn't take it that way. I am on friendly terms with Sam, though we often disagree and despite the fact that my first cousin is Sam's mortal enemy. He's probably correct that strong Japanese players know the Japanese etiquette of shogi better than I do, but we were playing by U.S. tournament rules. Every club or organizing body has the right to specify its own tournament rules, as long as they are not inconsistent with the universally accepted rules of the game. And of course >that the tool he uses is to demean Larry's knowledge of etiquette is >ironic. Miss Manners would have a field day here .... > >ALl this talk of rules versus etiquette is a little annoying (and please >excuse if this point has been made elsewhere - I have many more notes to >wade through!). When I was much younger, I took some books out of the >library to teach me which fork to use first and so on, what the 'etiquette' >was on asking a girl on a date and so on. My point is this - etiquette is >learned behavior too. I don't much care if what is published is entitled >'rules' or 'etiquette', but please publish something :-) I have no desire >either to make illegal moves, nor do I desire to insult my opponent >(unintentionally). This is going to be an increasing necessity as shogi >becomes more global, no? > >Is there a handy glossary I can use for some of these conversations? It's >frustrating watching a conversation talk about 'nifu' and not understanding >anything until someone points out what 'nifu' means. > >At this point I know how the pieces move ... and probably not much else. >To my knowledge there is not a club close to me. I feel if I were to show >up at a tournament, I'd be lost. How does one overcome all this >uncertainty (especially when there appears to be so much argument about >what the rulews really are? > I wouldn't worry about tournament rules if I were you. If you attend a tournament, probably the director will announce the important rules (time limits, whether a move can be retracted before the clock is hit, penalty for illegal moves, draw rules, etc.), or you can ask him if he doesn't. But unless you're playing for a substantial prize, you can just wait until a question arises, and everything will be explained then. Contrary to the implication of a posting by Mike Sandeman, I find that people in shogi tournaments are normally very friendly and fair-minded. I recall one incident at the Mind Sports Olympics where a strong (western) player tried to refuse to accept a time forfeit that he felt he did not deserve, though the TD ruled that it must stand. Never have I seen anyone try to claim victory by any shady or dubious method. In my opinion, a major reason for clear rules is that without them players who are very nice and/or shy may be reluctant to claim games that they really do deserve to win, while less unselfish folks will have no compunction about doing so. I don't like to see someone's good will turned to his detriment. Larry Kaufman