From: Nick Bardsley ICC CO UK> Date: 12 apr 2000 Subject: Re: Checkmate Well no. Because moving into check in Shogi is not illegal and remaining in check is not illegal. This is well known and accepted. It is the reason stalemate is not possible; stalemate would be possible under what you report to be Peter Blommers' argument. The only reason it is normally losing is that your opponent would capture on his next move. But in the case we are talking about - the opponent does not get the opportunity to capture and that is the key point. The suggested illegality of moving into check or remaining in check does not, of course, have an obscure origin. (Clue: it begins with 'C'...) Nick > As far as I remember from Peter Blommers article in the Dutch > shogi magazine > "81", he is also talking about this subject. If a king is in > check, but does > not move out of check or moves into check (this includes checkmate of > course), this is deemed an illegal move losing at once. From > this I deduct, > that you can survive giving checkmate with a hanging flaf on > the clock, > because you do not have to take the king with your next move. > But delivering > checkmate and your flag is falling exectly than might be > another story. Does > everybody agree to this? > > All the Best, > Thomas Majewski > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: 'Marc Theeuwen' [SMTP:Marc_Theeuwen AMSINC COM] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 12:48 PM > > To: SHOGI-L TECHUNIX TECHNION AC IL > > Subject: Checkmate > > > > >> In Europe, the first detected and claimed result counts. > So if you find > > yourself > > >> checkmated, (which in itself is legal) and your opponent > has run out of > > time, > > >> you still can > > >> claim the game. > > > > >Interesting, and not as I know it from chess. I can't > follow. If you are > > >checkmated, then your opponent has finished his last move > (although he > > might > > >not have had the time to press the clock afterwards), so > the game is > > over. > > >It should be hard to prove that the time was up *before* > he finished the > > mating > > >move. According to my chess tournament experience, mate > ends the game and > > you > > >can't claim a win according to your opponent having run > out of time. In > > >5-minutes games, even a mate-in-one position is still won > when you run > > out of > > >time. This one I never liked since it's not clear whether > the player > > would see > > >and give the mate, but according to me, when you finish > your move and > > it's mate > > >(really mate, not the start of a mating sequence) then the > game is over > > and > > >can't be reclaimed. > > > > Officially the game is only finished when one of the kings > is taken. It is > > not > > an illegal situation that your king remains to be in check > (there is no > > rule > > that forces you to say "check" to your opponent). Therefore > a checkmate is > > theoretically not sufficient to win the game; the player giving the > > checkmate > > also has to be able (i.e. have sufficient time on the > clock) to take the > > king. > > Ofcourse, it is bad taste to keep on playing in case the > opponent has an > > easy > > tsume, but in case of a sudden death game with the opponent > flag almost > > falling, > > you still can win the game on > > time. > > > > Regards, > > > > Marc Theeuwen > > > ********************************************************************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify > the system manager at mail wabco-auto com. > ************************************************************** > ********