From: Larry Kaufman WIZARD NET> Date: 22 may 1999 Subject: Re: Still Problems with the US Shogi Championship -----Original Message----- From: 'Ben Bednarz' AOL COM> To: SHOGI-L techunix technion ac il techunix technion ac il> Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Still Problems with the US Shogi Championship >Just to comment on another remark, I think Larry has greatly understate this >issue. >Larry kaufman wrote: ><< I find myself in partial agreement here. Elimination tournaments work > okay to determine a winner, but are very poor at deciding who is second, > third, and fourth best etc., and are totally unsuited to picking class > winners, in this case the class being those players with five year residency > >> >Frankly, the Swiss system is much superior to elimination tournaments, almost >no matter what your purpose: to generate a champion, to produce class >winners, to make sure all players get their money's worth. Basically, I agree. The Swiss system is far preferable to elimination tournaments. However, the elimination tournament does have the sole virtue of establishing a clear winner in a known number of rounds, with no need for a playoff. I don't believe this nearly offsets the advantages of the Swiss, but I merely point out that there is some validity to the opposite point of view. >So why would you use elimination tournaments? Three reasons: tradition, >simplicity, and shortage of tables. This last reason is exemplified by >tennis tournaments, where there are usually not enough courts. In that case, >it is more efficient to use elimination. For shogi, however, there is no >shortage of sets, so this reason does not applied. > >I am amazed that elimination would be used in any fashion at the US >Championships, especially with experienced chess players like Larry around. The use of elimination in US events reflects the fact that most of the strong players and organizers are Japanese, who hardly know what a Swiss tournament is. Those of us from a chess background are merely deferring to the wishes of the Japanese majority. However, I think that elimination tournaments are on the way out, as the Japanese players are introduced more and more to the Swiss system. >Were I one of the invitees, I probably would decline on the grounds that >elimination tournaments are a waste of time. Since those eliminated always go into some other event, the situation is really not so bad as you make it sound. Just because the system chosen for an event is not the best one, is no reason to stay away. > >Incidentally, I suspect (but have no mathematical proof) that elimination >tournaments distort ratings. The winners will go higher, while the losers >will go lower (lose your first two games in a double elimination, and you get >rated with an 0-2 record). I think you have to have at least a swiss system >(better would be round robin) to have accurate ratings. No, because the losers play in some other event, so there is no real difference in the ratings between the two formats. Sincerely, Larry Kaufman