From: "George I. Fernandez" MINDSPRING COM> Date: 26 mar 1999 Subject: Re: Capture a king? At 11:50 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Pauli Misikangas CS HELSINKI FI> >To: SHOGI-L techunix technion ac il techunix technion ac il> >Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 1:28 PM >Subject: Capture a king? > > >>Hi, >> >>I have understood that shogi rules allow a player to move or leave his own >>king into a check (probably because of mistake)? Thus, the opponent could >>capture the king on the next move. How are these situations handled in >>practice? Is the king really captured, or does the player that leaves his >>king in check automatically lose (game ends before capturing the king)? >> >>When one's king is checkmated, he is supposed to resign. So, a shogi game >>does not really end immediately after the checkmate move, but after >>resigning, right? But does the checkmated side have to resign? Or is it >>legal to still make a move (of course this makes no sense), thus forcing >>the opponent to capture the king on the next move? >> >>PS. I am asking these stupid and theoretical questions because I want to >>handle these situations correctly in my shogi program (Shocky). >> >>Best regards, >> >>Pauli Misikangas > > > I think the situation is almost exactly the same as in blitz chess. In >both tournament shogi and blitz chess, illegal moves lose, and leaving the >king in check may be claimed by capturing the king or by pointing out the >error. Whether leaving a king in check in shogi is "legal" or not makes no >difference; in either case the penalty is the same, loss of the game. When >checkmate occurs, the opponent either acknowledges it by saying "you won" or >if he mistakenly thinks he has a way out, he will make a move. In that case >you may either take his king or just point out that you could do so, and he >will resign. No shogi player will ever refuse to resign if he sees that he >has been checkmated; at least it has not happened to me in several thousand >games. I would advise that your program end the game with the checkmate, >simply to save the user the time and slight embarrassment of having to >resign. > Actually there is one way in which this detail might actually matter. >Suppose in a game with a fixed time limit I checkmate you with one second >remaining; you then make a move and my flag falls before I can physically >take your king. Who wins the game? I think in any western shogi tournament >I would still get the win, but in a Japanese tournament I honestly don't >know what the ruling would be. If any one really knows the answer to this >question, please let us know. > > Regards, Larry Kaufman, Amateur 5 dan > Getting any official word on this matter is nearly impossible at this time. Mr. Hiroguchi, Pro 6Dan, was assigned the task of compiling a complete set of shogi rules to be used generically a while back by the Nihon Shogi Renmei, the status of this project is unknown. Basically, the pros have very fixed rules which involve the assigned arbiters for each of their official games. The decision of a pro arbiter is always accepted, final, and never questioned (to my limited knowledge). As for amateurs, there is the Amateur Renmei, whose headquarters and decision makers I've never managed to find. Any sleuths out there? According to my recollection of Mr. Hiroguchi's, officially sactioned, provisional version of Nihon Shogi Renmei's rules of shogi from a few years ago and the set of rules which I received at the 9th Amateur Ryu-O sen in Japan in 1996 there are 7 ways to end a shogi game: 1. By resignation, which is irreversible and an immediate end to the game; 2. By Checkmate, when the King cannot escape capture the following move. The game immediately ends once the move is completed. Completing a move in Japanese clubs is done when the player giving mate removes his hand from the piece which delivers mate and the mate is thereby apparent on the board. In the U.S. a move is usually over over when the clock is pushed and NOT when ones hand is removed, with the exception of mate, when the rules are exactly the same. If mate exists, and it is played, the game is immediately decided in favor of the player giving the mate provided he/ she has time left on his/ her clock; 3. By an illegal move, which is claimed [in Japan, in some cases, the time allowed to claim a victory by this means seems to be extended BEYOND the end of the game and until the start of the next game!]; 4. By Sennichite [repetition rule]; 5. By Jishogi [impasse]; 6. By not showing up to play (forfeit); 7. Or by "overtime", exceeding the time limit. Moving into check IS considered to be an illegal move, so, by merely pointing it out by saying "illegal", "no", "cannot move there", or any part thereof, the game is immediately over, as would be the case with with any other illegal move. The checkmate rule is easy! Please don't ask about Jishogi... Regards, George U.S. Shogi Federation Tournament Rules Chairman George I. Fernandez President United States Shogi Federation 28-30 34th Street, Apt.#6-O Long Island City, NY 11103 Home Telephone:(718)956-5382 Pager:1(800)Sky-Page, Pin#1149515 E-Mail:g.fernandez mindspring com