From: Reijer Grimbergen ETL GO JP> Date: 8 apr 1999 Subject: Re: variant preference teruko PO2 NSKNET OR JP> writes: Hi Michael, > Dear Reijer, > Thanks for your thought provoking reply to my mail. Mini shogi and > judkins shogi appear to be small versions of shogi, whereas micro and > kyoto appear to be genuine variants and games of quite distinct > character. I'm investigating their history at present but it seems > certain that they are modern creations. This sounds interesting. Is there any way to find out more about these games? I guess there are no web pages devoted to them yet? > I think there is no danger of a > draw in kyoto shogi, in micro shogi there are times when the first wave > of fighting ends inconclusively and for a while it can be difficult for > either side to initiate a new offensive, however a decisive result is > likely as the eventual result. (I am making these statements from very > limited experience, I only heard of kyoto shogi last week, nevertheless > I believe them to be true). I think that such games may have been > created by shogi players throughout the period of modern shogi, they are > only now coming to be preserved on account of greater dissemination of > information and increase in the number of enthusiasts. Since starting playing shogi I have been wondering why new variants of the game keep popping up. In chess, which in my opinion is much more in need of variants to increase the excitement of the game, this has not been the case. Changing chess seems to be some kind of sacrilige. That being said, is there really an interest in these new shogi variants? It seems to me that board games in general are getting less popular, mainly because of the flashy video games. Are we talking "European Shogi player" numbers here or is there a chance that these games might become really popular? > The larger > variants have already died once and are perhaps not really suited to our > present social condition. It's possible that a forced win for one side > or the other can be more easily demonstrated in these small variants but > as they aren't serious tournament games or challenges for software > designers I dont think anyone is really looking for one. A game such as > noughts and crosses is very simple yet provides hours of entertainment > to children. Mancala type games are reputedly suited to computer > thinking but not to human thinking, their solubility doesn't interfere > in any way with their amusement value. Don't underestimate the will to solve games of AI researchers :-). There is a Hall of Fame of games that have been solved by computers and everybody wants to be part of that :-). I am not sure I agree with the two examples you give here. Solving noughts and crosses is very easy, so I do not think any child will play it for long. On the other hand, Mancala has not been solved by a computer program as far as I know. Being able to play stronger than any human is not the same as solving. If a computer would find a forced win or a forced draw in chess, this would mean the end of chess as a game unless the rules are changed. However, the fact that computers play better than almost all human players does not interfere with human players playing each other. I think, the two concepts "solving" and "beating all humans" have very different consequences for the game in question. > The least that can be said for > micro and kyoto shogis is that they can be fun for shogi players. Apart > from chuu and tenjiku I dont know if anyone is playing the variants > larger than regular shogi, their appeal maybe more philosophical than > practical. Micro and kyoto both require a kind of thought that has > similarities to but remains quite different from the thinking required > by shogi. This (perhaps) gives these games appeal for shogi players > whilst keeping them sufficiently perplexed to hold their interest. About > the aesthetics of symmetry, I think it's primarily to do with habit, as > a chess player I was disturbed initially by the change from oppositional > to rotational symmetry when I began playing shogi, as a mancala player I > am used to the 8x4 boards of bao and mweso and find other sizes > distracting. Kyoto shogi has a disturbingly naked feeling due to all the > pieces being on the back rank in the initial position. I dont suggest > that these or any other game be flawless however the survival of shogi > maybe akin to the international status of english language and not at > all indicative of superiority. I think another point that can be made here is a cultural one. Games do not only survive on there quality (of course imperfect games die quickly), but also because of their history and status. Even if everyone would agree that shogi is a more exciting game than chess, shogi will never get the status of chess in the West. (Of course this also works the other way around for chess and shogi in Japan.) I always wondered if it would be possible to set up an experiment where chess, shogi, xiang qi and Go could be compared. Very hard to do, since you need to have a large number of people who have an interest in games, but have never played any of those. Furthermore, the pieces of all games need to be changed to a single format understandable to all cultures. That probably means that Go can not be compared to the other three, since it is a completely different game. > I received the photos of Anthony's yesterday and sent them to Tsumeshogi > Paradise. I got a call from Mizukamisan this morning and he says a > report will be included in the gogatsugo. OK, I am glad to hear they arrived safely. Do you know when the May issue will come out? I would like a copy, but I have to be in Tokyo to get it. I might drop by the Renmei tomorrow on my way to the first game of the Meijin match that I will be visiting. It has been a long time since I went to see a title match (about two years), so I am looking forward to a day of shogi tomorrow. Best wishes, Reijer -- Reijer Grimbergen Complex Games Lab Electrotechnical Laboratory 1-1-4 Umezono, Tsukuba-shi, Ibaraki-ken, 305 JAPAN E-mail: grimberg etl go jp URL: http://www.etl.go.jp/etl/suiron/~grimberg/ Tel: +81-(0)298-54-3316 Fax: +81-(0)298-54-5918