From: "Jeroen J.-W. Tiggelman" <CRMBJTI <at> HDETUD2 <dot> TUDELFT <dot> NL>
Date: 20 may 1996
Subject: Re: notation

Arnoud Kleynjan wrote:
> >> In the Shogi-L forum(and throughout the US and Europe), there is an
> >> overwhelming preference for the standard western notation.
> >How do you know? My impression from the list is that people do not really
> care much.
> I do care, and I do strongly favour the "standard western notation". Perhaps

In case that wasn't clear, I was not looking for everybody posting his
private opinion in return to the list.

> Pieter really should take a vote, even if it's just to take this argument
> out of the discussion.

Interesting. I give a lot of logical arguments, and you cut them out.
Then I make a side reamrk, and you address it as a main argument, it
seems. A bit odd.

And yes, I  can be very sharp in criticisms. Moreover, unlike other
people I usually have no problem owning up to the fact that this
discussion has taken the form of a flamewar, consciously or not.
Which is not much of a problem to me, but neither is it very useful
to continue like this.

> 2 cents and all IMHO etc:

With a heading like that, you can always see the suggestive arguments
streaming in. Alright, I'll be nasty for this once, and point them out.

> I think this list is a communication link between people from a large number
> of countries, including Japan itself.

This is not in question.

> Communicating through a text-based, non-real-time link in itself has it's
> problems. Take for example the development of "emoticons" like :-)

This is trivial.

> Communicating being as difficult as it is, I think it is important to make
> it as clear and simple as possible, so it's easy to understand each other.

So what's the part that should be simplest, composing or interpreting,
or is it a combination of both? Communication at least _takes_ both.
The statement itself is, again, _not_ in question.

> One language is essential to this; imagine if people were contributing to

No, it isn't. Look at soc.culture.belgium, a newsgroup where Dutch,
French, German and English are combined and intermingled, even within
threads, which seems to pose no significant problems. Indeed, a lot
of the richness of the discussion stems from the fact that all readers
can contribute in their own languages; if this weren't the case the
exchange between Flanders and Wallonia would probably flag rather than
prosper.

> this discussion in English, French, German, Japanese, etc. (This message
> would then be in Dutch. Not a great many people would read it <g>)

The inapplicability from the example stems from the fact that the
languages you mention cannot be considered to be either reasonably
known, or easily learned by the general readership. The notations
we are talking about on the other hand are few in number and each
easily understood.

> (The wish to communicate difficult and abstract things like "culture", or
> "Shogi-way" through this link is IMO doomed to fail)

Agreed (naturally, it's trivial not only, but I mentioned as much
before).

> Just so one language for "talking a game" is essential: The notation.

Nope. Repetitions _entirely_ fail to impress me. I have often adapted
the habit of repeating the replies as well on the 'net... but it's
fairly tedious.

> IMHO this only leaves a discussion about which notation. Unfortunately

Since I disagree on the statement referred to by "this", the rest of
your reply can't be addressed to me (well, fair enough, you wrote
"Jeroen, and all," after all). Nevertheless..

(diffuse stuff excised -- serving no purpose where the actual argument
 is concern ed as far as I can see)

> OTOH, often an interest in the spreading of Shogi over the world is
> expressed by people on this list. What has been called "the natural market"

A nice rhetoric start..

> for this, are chess players all over this world. Chess itself has had this

A nice effusive manner of speech, "What has been called" avoids taking
responsibility for the statement, while still adopting it as to be
used. However, it is obviously not _the_ natural manner, but _one_
natural manner to (help) reach that effect.

> discussion, and although there still are "local" alternatives (KB1 to QB4),
> there is no doubt about what the international notation is.

The argument thus really saying that "this is the traditional view,
so it is right". Which does no justice to the original concept of
wanting to _spread shogi_, regardless of cultures or backgrounds, and
is thus rather silly.

> This notation is easily adaptable to Shogi, makes Shogi game scores
> "familiar" to potential new players, and is probably known by a large part
> of the Shogi-l members.  <mark-1>

A large part of the Shogi-L members is probably familiar with both
(see also your <mark-1>). I think, though, that it is not that
relevant to new players whether _all_ game scores are in a familiar
notation, and it is more likely that a  blend of notations in which
_all_ potential new subscribers would recognize one as familiar
would have the best effect on recruiting new members. Once this is
done, they will easily learn the other notation(s). This combined
with the fact that the recognizability of the notation is not nearly
enough to get people to join Shogi-L, I think this argument can be
safely dismissed as well.

> Most importantly, I don't think the list has this same function and
> importance to japanese "prospects". They go to a local club, other pages on
> the net, watch tv, or play with their fathers. But they won't subscribe to
> the list to learn Shogi.

May I remind you that the origin of this installment of this
recurring flamewar was that a Japanese player was unfamiliar with
the western notation, yet wanted to contribute? May I inquire whether
you think, then, that we should really heighten the threshold to
participation from Japanese players?

I think you may be a little carried away here by the argument you are
trying to make. This is normal, BTW, and it is the reason why I often
prefer to answer in a discussion such as this paragraph by paragraph,
if not line by line over formulating a nicely readable and kind piece
of rhetoric of my own championing whatever opinion I might want to
express.. Of course, it makes me look rather unsympathetic, but I
don't mind too much about that..

> And if I should weigh the efforts and interests of a japanese Shogi player
> who already knows the game, but has to learn the international notation,
> and of a non-japanese Shogi "prospect", who perhaps knows the notation but
> not the game, I think it's most important to make Shogi easily "learnable"
> for that prospect.

I think you shouldn't. I will join you in encouragement of participants
_once they are_ to use the western notation, but for the very same
reason as the one you circumscribe, a matter of  _thresholds_, I think
it is better _not_ to _prescribe_ one "official" notation _for the
forum_. (Am I getting through?)

> NOTE: No disrespect or discrimination of the Japanese people or culture is
> intended here. I'm just trying to be practical here as far as "spreading"
> shogi is concerned.

I don't think you succeed in being practical, though.

> Finally: Jeroen:
> >>I grant you that this notation would not be very suitable for a magazine;
> however, Shogi-L isn't one.
> Please look ahead a little bit further. Let's hope that someday there really
> is a standard, that there a weekly Shogi magazines in the shops (or on the
> net). If you already admit that "that notation" isn't very suitable then,
> let's not use it now.

And now I'm getting really annoyed. You are saying that we must make
this notational demand _to attract new players_ as best we can _now_,
and then try to  come up with a situation in the distant future in
which all sins have been forgiven and... (to use a nasty paraphrase)?
This is nothing but false inapplicable rhetoric. If we are gonna talk
about ideals, I rather hope the medium advances far enough to use
Japanese characters, and that we can then use the Japanese notation
as the one and only. So much for that crap.

> >>If you want to teach chess players, yes..
> So we do have a logical choice for teaching chess players. And no
> alternative for when we teach Go, checkers, and tennis players. So what's
> the value of this remark?

The value of this remark, so nicely pulled from context, is that I
see where George is coming from and that there is merit in the idea
of adopting the western notation here as much as possible, in spite
of the fact that I do not agree with the principal proposal  of
exclusivity. That you could not divine that shows, i believe, that
you are the one on the warpath here, not me. I just put things very
sharply. I always do. And that's why I took every effort to make
clear that I was not preoccupied with some forcible head-long
collision. Oh well.

> >>Flamewar
> Must have missed something. When did this become a flamewar? ;-)

A long time ago. Your reply certainly was at the supremely inflamed
level. And you really should have expected an answer like this, in
kind.

> <mark-1>
> However, if we really wish to "spread" Shogi over the world, we *must*
> present a game that is worthy and interesting in it's own right, and that

Come on, the game _is_ worthy and interesting in its own right -
regardless of which notation..

> can be learned without also having to learn a particular understanding of
> Japan or Japanese culture or Japanese language, by anybody in this world.

If people can learn the Kanji on the pieces, they can learn a small
set of terms "Fu", "Kei", .. and associate them  with the appropriate
piece. That seems rather logical to me, at least.

> I can only speak for myself, of course, and maybe I'm simply too feeble
> minded to be allowed to play this game, but I do know that I often feel
> hampered by my lack of knowledge of the japanese language.

I particularly hate this type of fake humility. It may be from
having particated in some interesting cross-newsgroups flamewars
between the metal and christian newsgroups.. hmm..

Jeroen

P.S. If you _really_ want to make a case, you will have to answer the
     points I raise, not repeat your own.. Of course, if your idea
     of being right is drowning out the opposition.. *shrug*