From: Arnoud Kleynjan IXONET NL> Date: 20 may 1996 Subject: notation -- [ From: Arnoud Kleynjan * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Jeroen, and all. I really didn't want to get involved, and I won't post after this, but >> In the Shogi-L forum(and throughout the US and Europe), there is an >> overwhelming preference for the standard western notation. >How do you know? My impression from the list is that people do not really care much. I do care, and I do strongly favour the "standard western notation". Perhaps Pieter really should take a vote, even if it's just to take this argument out of the discussion. 2 cents and all IMHO etc: I think this list is a communication link between people from a large number of countries, including Japan itself. Communicating through a text-based, non-real-time link in itself has it's problems. Take for example the development of "emoticons" like :-) Communicating being as difficult as it is, I think it is important to make it as clear and simple as possible, so it's easy to understand each other. One language is essential to this; imagine if people were contributing to this discussion in English, French, German, Japanese, etc. (This message would then be in Dutch. Not a great many people would read it ) (The wish to communicate difficult and abstract things like "culture", or "Shogi-way" through this link is IMO doomed to fail) Just so one language for "talking a game" is essential: The notation. IMHO this only leaves a discussion about which notation. Unfortunately Shogi's natural notation is not possible here: the original japanese characters are not available to most people outside Japan. If it were otherwise we would probably not be having this discussion. So only an adapted version of that notation could be an alternative.(but I gladly refer to a former message about that. Thank you George) OTOH, often an interest in the spreading of Shogi over the world is expressed by people on this list. What has been called "the natural market" for this, are chess players all over this world. Chess itself has had this discussion, and although there still are "local" alternatives (KB1 to QB4), there is no doubt about what the international notation is. This notation is easily adaptable to Shogi, makes Shogi game scores "familiar" to potential new players, and is probably known by a large part of the Shogi-l members. Most importantly, I don't think the list has this same function and importance to japanese "prospects". They go to a local club, other pages on the net, watch tv, or play with their fathers. But they won't subscribe to the list to learn Shogi. And if I should weigh the efforts and interests of a japanese Shogi player who already knows the game, but has to learn the international notation, and of a non-japanese Shogi "prospect", who perhaps knows the notation but not the game, I think it's most important to make Shogi easily "learnable" for that prospect. NOTE: No disrespect or discrimination of the Japanese people or culture is intended here. I'm just trying to be practical here as far as "spreading" shogi is concerned. Finally: Jeroen: >>I grant you that this notation would not be very suitable for a magazine; however, Shogi-L isn't one. Please look ahead a little bit further. Let's hope that someday there really is a standard, that there a weekly Shogi magazines in the shops (or on the net). If you already admit that "that notation" isn't very suitable then, let's not use it now. >>If you want to teach chess players, yes.. So we do have a logical choice for teaching chess players. And no alternative for when we teach Go, checkers, and tennis players. So what's the value of this remark? >>Flamewar Must have missed something. When did this become a flamewar? ;-) In my experience it is still so that most people who play Shogi have other "interests" in Japan or japanese culture, and often speak the language (a bit). A resonable part of the shogi-l members probably understand that adaption of the Japanese notation as well, and have no problem with it. However, if we really wish to "spread" Shogi over the world, we *must* present a game that is worthy and interesting in it's own right, and that can be learned without also having to learn a particular understanding of Japan or Japanese culture or Japanese language, by anybody in this world. I can only speak for myself, of course, and maybe I'm simply too feeble minded to be allowed to play this game, but I do know that I often feel hampered by my lack of knowledge of the japanese language. -- Arnoud Kleynjan Ixonet Automatisering the Netherlands http://www.ixonet.com/ixdirect