From: "Jeroen J.-W. Tiggelman" HDETUD2 TUDELFT NL> Date: 20 may 1996 Subject: Re: Notation / Female Shogi NOTE: I have seen some people say they do not want a discussion on notation here, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME PUSHING THEIR OPINION. I find this incongruous, and will therefore at this time ignore the former statement. Practice what you preach. This first one of a little batch of posts (for I decided not to collect all the statements into a single one, because I thought it wouldn't be as clear) will also address the (in my eyes much more interesting) topic of female shogi players; the following ones can safely be skipped by those tired of the argument without any loss of information. > Alexander Engelhardt wrote: > > let's keep things simple and use just two systems: the japanese system with > > system with kanjis and all > > and the international system ( P7f ecc.) Anything else would just complica > > complicate matters and should therefore be avoided I think this argument is decidedly unfair. On the one hand, it is true that having a number of systems is more complex than having one, but by demanding everybody use that system (which may not be as familiar) you will complicate matters for them. In my eyes, it is a bad thing to do so, since this might discourage people from supplying game scores, and the heightened "complexity" isn't really that bad. It is defendable to politely ask people to try and learn the "standard" notation, but given that new members will subscribe all the time, it seems a more constructive line of strategy if the people around try to understand one or two additional different notations, IMO. (BTW, this is not primarily aimed at Mr. Engelhardt.) DICK IWAKURA wrote that he couldn't understand the international notation, that the impact of Western chess on this part of Japanese culture saddened him, and that he received many an appreciate email on his description. He proceeded to observe that for some people "76 Fu" is easier than P7f, and explained that it was difficult for him to convert to the international standard, and therefore hoped that his postings would be accepted as they are. To this, I want to say the following: I, for one, was quite happy with the game score as he posted it, and if it is a pain to him to use international notation, I don't see why he should. An effort to learn it would doubtless be appreciated, but meanwhile surely a score in a different notation is a lot better than no score at all. :-) Culture, I think, is a compelx thing. I have no difficulty believing that the Japanese notation is easier to some, and I do not agree that the international notation is really appreciatively easier at all -- but I'll address that elsewhere. However, I want to suggest that the use of a different notation need not be looked upon as an intrusion into an established tradition. Not following, after all, is not the same as opposing. :-) I want to add that the attitude of the western players championing the "international standard" (as they would have it) looks to me similarly as a defense of "their own" which pretends that where different cultures meet, one should win out. I don't think so. About FEMALE SHOGI PLAYERS Dick Iwakura wrote that he had some experience with the teaching of shogi to children of both sexes at the HongKong Shogi Club, and he diagnosed that females are more emotional (less logical) than males, and too aggressive (too careless about their defence). First of all (speaking statistically), I have little difficulty with the statement that females are more emotional (this being a result of upbringing IMO -- I was speaking statistically ;-)). However, I am not so certain whether this really explains the difference between female and male players in shogi (as opposed to, say, go) adequately. It occurs to me that there may also be the aspect of the _approach_ used in teaching: if we agree that the way men and women view things tend to differ, than different approaches would make sense. Otherwise, you get the effect that a male-dominated discipline will be taught along lines that suit the male experience better, which results in the discipline being less accessable to females, thereby eternalising the male-dominated state. As for the "too aggressive" bit... well, I find it a bit odd to suppose females more aggressive in general (I'd rather suppose the opposite). However, the men having more experience with unclear situations that take a lot of balancing, I can see that they would be better at it. I have the feeling that women rather "hold the fortress", i.e., they defend. ;-) Now, suddenly placed in a situation where attack is mandatory (for a shogi game cannot be held like a westren chess game), they might overcompensate. This aspect does not occur in go, I think, because there is not one area (the attack and defense of kings) which is far more important than the rest of the game -- at least in my conception there is no change in importance of the respective board areas during the different phases of the game, making go more of a quiet strategically-dominated game. But this may be just my ignorance, for I have played but little go... anyway, FWIW.. Regards, Jeroen Tiggelman crmbjti hdetud2 tudelft nl