From: George Fernandez EROLS COM> Date: 17 may 1996 Subject: Re: Meijin Match No.3 & Shogi Notation At 01:51 PM 5/14/96 -0400, you wrote: >>In message "Meijin Match No.3", Dick Iwakura writes: >Can someone explain how to convert this notation into the one I'm >used: P8f-8g or P8g ect. >I assume Fu=pawn, ?=gold,... >How are drops, promotions, and promoted pieces denoted? >Look forward to an answer so that I can sample some more Habu Shogi >in another notation. Actually it would be cool to see other games as well, but >these days I'm too busy. I wonder if there will ever be a professional >shogi web site ... the weeks matches are: ... >>Hi, everybody! This is Hong Kong Shogi Club (branch of Japan Shogi >> Association) >> Sente Gote >> ----- ---- >> 76 Fu 84 Fu >> 26 Fu 32 Kin >-- >Regards, >George Jost >(ESN 395-2895) (613)-765-2895 :) >e-mail: jost bnr ca >---------------------------------------------------- Dear George, This is NOT a good notation system for western players. It is useful, however, when wanting to communicate verbally with japanese shogi players, in which case, you should also know how to count 1 thru 9 in japanese. The system, which I'll call "japanese notation without kanji", is basically the standard japanese notation minus the kanji and also the way shogi moves are SAID in japanese. It uses numbers for BOTH the files and ranks and spells-out(using the Roman alphabet) the pieces[in abbreviated form, i.e., Keima becomes Kei] and any necessary action, such as "promotes"[nari] or "drops"[utsu]. The true japanese system works well BECAUSE the kanji characters take-up only ONE space each. I'm certain that Shogi Renmei or Shogi Sekai would not consider using TWENTY "kana"[hiragana or katakana] characters to describe a single move!(see example below). And this is exactly what happens when you try to convert this system to English. During a recent conversation about a similar subject, I took an inventory of shogi-related pages written in English(or other non-japanese languages) over the years, using the standard western shogi notation, and was not surprised to find that they easily numbered more than 10,000! (excluding scoresheets). It doesn't compare with the wealth of shogi materials written in japanese but it is an impressive start and a clear sign that players worldwide have been able to learn it and use it readily. Generally, the western notation system takes only 15-30 minutes to learn for Japanese and westerners alike. There are four reasons why I've decided to explain this notation system: Firstly, as a courtesy to you and others who asked for an explanation; Secondly, to demonstrate and give some concrete reasons why it is NOT a good notation system for western players; Thirdly, to explain the system COMPLETELY; and Fourthly, my primary reason, to explain the correct way to SAY shogi moves in japanese. At present, when using the true japanese system(with kanji) there is a maximum of 7 characters needed to write or convey ANY move. Likewise, the longest possible move in standard western notation uses 7 characters. The japanese system without kanji can use up to 26 characters! In the example below there are 4 Silvers capable of moving diagonally to the square 3c. Let's say that the one at 4d moves there and doesn't promote. 4 3 2 1 --------------------+ | | | | | a(1) --------------------+ | bS | | bS | | b(2) --------------------+ | | | | | c(3) --------------------+ | bS | | bS | | d(4) --------------------+ Here is how each of the notations mentioned would describe/write this particular move. I agree, this is NOT a typical situation but I want to make a clear point here: 1. True japanese notation: I cannot generate kanji characters on my PC. The move is given in the following order. I will use the letters A thru F. 3A[3 in kanji]B[Silver]C[left]D[forward]E[doesn't]F[promote]. 1. True japanese notation: 3ABCDEF 2. Western notation: S4d-3c= 3. Japanese notation without kanji: 33 Gin Hidari Agaru Narazu Here is the side by side comparison: 3ABCDEF - 7 characters S4d-3c= - 7 characters 33 Gin Hidari Agaru Narazu -26 characters 33 GinHidariAgaruNarazu -23 characters 33 Silver Left Forward Doesn't Promote -38 Characters Imagine the kind of margins you would need to use this notation on a regular basis! AND the additional time it would take our few dedicated shogi promoters and editors, worldwide, to type in such a game score. Here is what you need to know in order to SAY shogi moves in japanese: First, there is a different order used in describing moves. In the west, as in chess, the "piece used"(including the square of origin, if necessary)[1] is said first; Followed by the "type of move"[2]; The "landing square"[3]; And, in the case of shogi, whether the piece "promotes or not"(if applicable)[4]. Let's examine each of these, in brief, for the benefit of the japanese readers. Please refer to the various shogi web sites(including within Shogi-L) for a more complete explanation. [1] There are 14 different pieces in shogi: K = King; R = Rook; B = Bishop; G = Gold; S = Silver; N = kNight; L = Lance; and P = Pawn. That's 8. Now, six of these can promote and three have alternate names/symbols which are widely accepted: +R[or D] = Promoted Rook or Dragon; +B[or H] = Promoted Bishop or Horse; +S = Promoted Silver; +N = Promoted kNight; +L = Promoted Lance; and +P[or T] = Promoted Pawn or Tokin. [2] There are 3 types of moves: "-" or nothing = Moves to; "*" or "'" = Drops at; and "x" = Captures at. [3] There are 81 squares on the board: 1a [11] to 9i [99]. The "a, b & c" ranks are White's(Gote's) camp, "d, e & f" are the middle ground and "g, h & i" are Black's(Sente's) camp. [4] Two choices here: "+" = Promotes; and "=" = Doesn't promote. Example #1 Example #2 Example #3 Example #4 P-7f Sx3g+ G4a-5b L*5e [1] P S G4a L [2] - x - * [3] 7f 3g 5b 5e [4] + There are NO exeptions. All moves comply with the system. The japanese system uses the following order: "Landing square"[1] (regardless of whether it is a simple move, a drop or a capture), with an important exception (see special notes); "Piece used"[2]; Direction of movement(used ONLY in situations where it is ambiguous which piece moves to a given square)[3a, 3b & 3c]. "In which direction the piece COMES FROM"[3a], in the case of LEFT or RIGHT only; "In which direction the piece GOES TO"[3b], in the case of FORWARD, STRAIGHT, SIDE(with this one we can say that both "COMES FROM" and "GOES TO" apply) or BACK; And a drop[3c]. And finally, whether a piece "promotes or not"[4] (if applicable). Two special notes: 1. When both a [3a] AND a [3b] must be given the [3a]direction is always said first. This is a VERY difficult aspect of the japanese system. In Mr. Horiguchi's 1993 booklet, titled, "The rules of shogi", he needed 8 Diagrams and 8 pages to explain the many possibilities and correct description of each! 2. When a capture or a re-capture occurs at the same square as the previous move[i.e. 16.P-2d, Px2d; or 16.... Px2d 17.Bx2d] a special word or character["DO" or "DOU"] is used, followed by the capturing piece, instead of a normal(complete) move. [1] File first, then Rank. Numbers for both. 1a = 11 and 9i = 99. 1 = Ichi; 2 = Ni; 3 = San; 4 = Yon(Shi is NOT used); 5 = Go; 6 = Roku; 7 = Nana(Shichi is NOT used); 8 = Hachi; and 9 = Kyu. [2] K = Gyoku or O; R = Hi(pronounced "he", of course ;-); B = Kaku; G = Kin; S = Gin; N = Kei; L = Kyo; P = Fu; +R[or D] = Ryu; +B[or H] = Uma; +S = NariGin; +N = NariKei; +L = NariKyo; And +P[or T] = Tokin. [3a] Left = HIDARI; Right = MIGI [3b] Forward or Up = AGARU; Straight = SUGU [some players mistakenly use the word CHOKU]; Side = YORU; Back = HIKU [3c] Drop = UTSU [See special note] Captures or re-captures at the same square = DO or DOU [4] Promotes = NARI; Doesn't promote = NARAZU Example #1 Example #2 Example #3 Example#4 P-7f Sx3g+ G4a-5b L*5e [1] 76 37 52 55 [2] Fu Gin Kin Kyo [3] Hidari(c) [Utsu](d) [S] [Dou](a) [4] Nari(b) (a) If, this were a capture of a piece, having JUST moved there or a re-capture, it would be: Dou Gin Nari, instead of 37 Gin Nari. (b) If the original Silver(the one moving) was at 4f(46) and there was another Silver at 2h(28), then it would be 37 Gin Agaru Nari, instead of 37 Gin Nari. If however, the second Silver was at 2f(26) instead, then it would be 37 Gin Hidari Nari. (c) If by chance, there was another Gold at 4b(42), then it would be: 52 Kin Agaru, instead of 52 Kin Hidari. In the remote possibility that additionally, a third Gold was present at 6a(61), then it would be 52 Kin Hidari Agaru. You got it? (d) If, another Lance could MOVE TO this square, it would be: 55 Kyo Utsu, otherwise the drop is NOT mentioned, and the move is said simply 55 Kyo. And that's all there is to it! Now, let's look at the moves again. >> Sente Gote >> ----- ---- >> 76 Fu 84 Fu >> 26 Fu 32 Kin 1. Nana Roku Fu 2. Hachi Yon Fu 3. Ni Roku Fu 4. San Ni Kin Please file this away someplace and enjoy using it as a guide to help you in future shogi discussions with japanese players, as I do. However, as far as notation "for the masses" goes, it is NOT practical. In the Shogi-L forum(and throughout the US and Europe), there is an overwhelming preference for the standard western notation. I too strongly favor staying with it and greatly appreciate the fact that this is one area where we have overcome many language barriers. During the last ten years I have been actively involved in the promotion of shogi in the DC and Boston areas. For six years, as the editor-in-chief of the DC Shogi Club Newsletter, I've had numerous occasions where I had to review and later type-in many shogi games. Some American players have TRIED to use this system already and the results were terrible! Usually, while in byoyomi, they would start to draw lines to show in which direction the pieces were moving. Oftentimes whole sequences were wrong, because, for example they would mistake 3c(33) for 7g(77). As a result, my time was usually wasted trying to re-construct the games and the players were subsequently unable to use the games for study purposes. Additionally, when we DID find a good game, we STILL had to convert it to the standard western notation for publication. In fairness to the japanese players in our club, their scoresheets were better, but they of course DON'T use the Roman alphabet(as in the sample game). Instead, there is a "shorthand" version of the kanji characters. This too is very confusing for western players, but that's another topic! I am fairly new to Shogi-L, but from what I can gather people are tired of hearing about notation. I therefore request that questions and/or comments about this particular posting be sent to me directly. Sayonara! George Fernandez erols com> 2000 S. Eads Street, Apt. #504 Arlington, VA 22202 (703)521-5107