From: Pieter Stouten CARBON DMPC COM> Date: 21 jan 1996 Subject: Standardized western Shogi notation system According to Reijer Grimbergen etl go jp>, the Nihon Shogi Renmei is interested in adopting a standard westernized notation scheme. Although it is interesting to discuss the issue of notation for its own sake, I wonder what influence our discussion will have on the ultimate decision. Having said that, I think the most important issue that the discussion should focus on first is to agree on the reasons for a standard notation. Assuming we are talking about a human-readable system only (i.e., not for use by/in computers), my personal feeling is that its purposes should be: 1) to help spreading Shogi, and 2) to eliminate confusion when talking about Shogi and Shogi games. For that reason, I was very glad to read the note that Hiroki Kawada merl hitachi co jp> sent to SHOGI-L on 18 January: >Using one of the conventional notation systems is the most practical and >better to spreading shogi to the world. Once we make something to be >'international', it is no more focused on Japanese people. It must be >EASILY understood by most of the peoples in the world. Today, alphabet >notation and English terms (Silver, King etc.) are the easiest way. Several people embrace the idea that Shogi should be spread as part of Japanese culture and its notation should be as close to the original as possible. I agree with this notion, but would like to add a qualifier: as long as it does not hamper the spread of Shogi. Shogi has already been spreading in the west ever since the late seventies, and national and international Shogi magazines, books and organizations have adopted the scheme used by The Shogi Association (TSA) with only minor alterations. The system has worked very well all those many years, and I have heard no complaints about it at all (despite the tendency of Shogi players, myself included, to disagree with and complain about most everything ). Despite differences in language, all countries in the west use the TSA system with English abbreviations. When e.g. Dutch talk about Shogi, they use a mixture of Japanese, English and Dutch words. "National" Shogi vocabularies are at present a synthesis of words from different languages dictated by historical developments, but all westerners use one notation system. The success of the postal Shogi league that operates worldwide could only come about with one uniform notation system. The point I try to make is that there is Shogi history outside Japan, albeit relatively short, and that it has resulted in a working notation system that has been adopted everywhere in the west. If the present system is inferior to other systems then I would have no objections to adopt a new one. I assume that there is not much reason to change the notation format very much (i.e., name of the piece [, followed sometimes by the original square, a sign for drop, a sign for capture], followed by the final square [, followed sometimes by a sign for promotion or non-promotion]). In fact I have seen no proposals to alter it as far as human-readable notation is concerned. What is left is the coordinate system and the names of the pieces. The crux of the matter is that the Japanese kanji numerals used for coordinates cannot be converted to ASCII characters. Therefore, an alternative must be found to indicate the horizontal ranks. One might e.g. use letters, or Roman numerals, or Arabian numerals. Most westerners use letters (e.g. 7f), some use Arabian numerals (e.g. 77), none use Roman numerals (e.g. 7 vii). I think Roman numerals are the worst choice: they require up to three characters, mistakes are easily made (see Sunny Sano's message of 16 January, where "iv" is given rather than "ix" for rank "9"), and ancient Roman numerals have as much to do with Japanese as the anglo-saxon alphabet. In order not to confuse vertical files and horizontal ranks, one might opt to use letters. Letters may be inconvenient, however, when converting Japanese game scores (e.g. for publication in western magazines). Personally, I have a slight preference for letters rather than Arabian numerals, but mainly because it is the established system. That leaves the issue of letter codes for the pieces. The cultural notions behind introducing a new system may be quite valid in and by themselves, but it would do nothing but confuse the established as well as the future base of western players. It would also render the (admittedly few) western Shogi books, magazines, etc. obsolete. Is it worth confusing old and new Shogi players by using G for Gold in one system and for King (Gyoku) in another? In a practical sense, would it not be cumbersome to use two-letter abbreviations for four out of nine pieces? And if two-letter abbreviations are unacceptable (as I think they are), how would one abbreviate Kin and Gin without making compromises? I would be strongly against adopting new names for the pieces. As to the cultural issues, nobody is arguing to change the rules of Shogi or the kanji or anything like that. What has been proposed is to use a system suitable for western players to talk *ABOUT* Shogi and Shogi games. If Japanese talk about art, e.g. a Van Gogh painting, will they talk about a "Van Gogh schilderij [the Dutch word for painting]" or will they use the Japanese equivalent for "schilderij?" In order to avoid confusion they will probably use a word that they all know. In doing so, do they blemish the Dutch cultural heritage? I do not think so. The TSA-based Shogi notation system has been in use for quite a while everywhere in the west, because that makes it easier for westerners to talk *about* Shogi and Shogi games. Standardizing the western Shogi notation system would only help ensure that people all over the western world can continue to communicate about Shogi without confusion. It would only formalize an existing set of conventions. Would any non-Japanese Shogi notation system put a smudge on the Japanese culture? Would standardizing a particular notation system for use by all westerners taint the Japanese cultural heritage? Not being Japanese, I would not dare to answer those questions, but based on Hiroki Kawada's posting, I would not think so. Cheers, Pieter. -- Pieter Stouten || Nothing shocks me; Computer Aided Drug Design Group || The DuPont Merck Pharmaceutical Company || I am a scientist! P.O. 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