From: Jonathan Tisdall POWERTECH NO> Date: 16 apr 1996 Subject: Checkmate OK, my two cents. This discussion baffles and amazes me. As far as I can see from the letters pouring in, we do not even have a consensus about whether or not the pawn drop in the original position is legal or not. My thoughts: Whether because of my chess "baggage" or because of the use of the term "mate" in books, I always assumed that a pawn drop was illegal if it created a situation which I will now call the "opponent's king inevitably being captured next move". My understanding of this is that in the original example it is not legal to drop. If you define mate in this way, everything becomes very clear. I do not understand this about there being no mate in shogi. Since there is such a rule regarding pawn drops, ergo the concept of mate exits, or?? Maybe kings can be taken in practice, but that seems to be another matter entirely. Re: the chess reference, it is a rule that if an illegal (e.g. king hanging) move is made and spotted before the game is over, the reverts to the last legal position and the game continues. I can think of dozens of reasons to bash chess as a comparative game, but hardly on the grounds that it has a clear set of rules... but maybe Arnoud just wants to take kings. (I think it is often allowed in blitz, no?) The fact that this discussion is so complex here is rather frightening, and raises to my mind my first real feeling of drawbacks with shogi - this certainly is a situation that can occur often, and I find it incredible that there is no rule to clarify it. I would guess there is (?). Finally, again to weave chess into it, there is often a similar gray spot for less experienced players while playing - they will try to deliver "mate" with, for example a pinned piece, or get out of mate by capturing with their king a piece protected by a pinned piece. This misconception is cleared up by the argument that it doesn't work because one's king would be taken first (if one could take kings). It may be that a kind of reverse effect is setting in here? That the drop (in the original query) is legal because the pinned piece can capture since kings are occasionally taken, when in fact it is not because there is a concept of mate occuring first? Was that clear? Jonathan Tisdall Heimdalsgt. 27C 0561 Oslo, Norway +47-22 68 54 18, tlf+fax.