From: atkinson VAXROM CERN CH Date: 27 may 1991 Subject: Tsume-Shogi queries I asked something very much like this question last year, but here is at least one example. (Possibly more if I can find them in my book...) These problems are in a book, and so are copyright, but I need to say what they are or else I can't ask my question. I hope this is ok. The book is "Let's Play Shogi" and is ISBN 4-415-04642-8. Absolutely everything else is in Japanese, so I can't tell you the publisher or the author or anything. The book has problems which are 1-, 3- and 5-movers. (1 move Tsume-Shogi! yay!) Consider the following 3-mover: Black S 3c, B 5e. In hand: R White B 4a, K3a, +R 2b The solution in the book is: R*2a, +Rx2a, B-6d This problem neatly embodies TWO difficulties I have found with this book. (i) What does black do if white does Kx2a instead of +Rx2a? Sx2b+ is mate, but black has a piece in hand, which is not allowed. (ii)The solution in the book is not actually checkmate. White can drop pieces in the way of the bishop, and black can take them. Mate only happens when the bishop reaches 4b. Reijer told me in Frankfurt, or on Shogi-L,or something, that (ii) is not a problem since the drops are clearly totally useless. But please notice that in (ii) as well black has things in hand at the mate.But, for the sake of a quiet life, let's say that it is good enough to have nothing in hand when clearly all that White can do is futile drops. But what is the answer to (i)? Reijer tried to tell me, but I didn't really understand. >From the same book: Black +B 3a. In hand R, G. White L 1a, K 1b, S 4b, +B 1d Solution in book: R*3b, +Bx3b, G*1c Jolly good. But what if White drops a piece on 2b? +Bx2b is mate, but black still has a piece in hand. Are these problems defective? There are lots more like them in this book. Should I throw the whole book away? Part of the problem is to use white's "best defence", and since white knows that I must finish with nothing in hand, he/she would obviously like to force me to capture things. I sometimes find that I have rejected the "correct" first move precisely because White has a response which allows me to mate ONLY if I do so with pieces still in hand. (The mate is the same length as the official solution, though.) If you say "Well, it's all to do with elegance and the Japanese way of looking at things" I won't believe you. The same goes for that story someone told me about a 9-move problem which is really 23 moves long, but since White needs to play a move which is in poor taste to achieve this, it is regarded as a 9-move problem in any case. Tommyrot. If you can sacrifice rooks and bishops to force mate, surely you can also make moves which would in other circumstances be bad shape,or potato style or whatever, as long as they work. I can't believe someone would deliberately lose a pro game just because the only defence was in bad taste. Anyone else out there have any examples of Tsume-Shogi like the ones I give above? I will check my other Japanese book to see if it is like this at all... Adam Atkinson Rome